Patch 7.3 Hotfixes for September 5th, Flying on Argus Discussion, Gladiator’s Summit


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Comment by Joshmaul

on 2017-09-05T20:28:41-05:00

Honestly, I have no sympathy for the flight whiners. We worked our butts off to get it, that’s true. But consider from a gameplay perspective: If they can blast something like the Xenedar out of the sky with one shot, it stands to reason (especially with all the heavy artillery in the Antoran Wastes, and those little fighter things for “Immortal Squadron”) that there’d be something to blast people flying around on mounts. And then people would say “it’s too hard”.

I, for one, think grounding us on Argus is a good idea. Argus is not meant to be friendly, to flying mounts or to anything else for that matter. If you want to fly, stay on the Vindicaar all day. Otherwise, shush.

Comment by jaldaan

on 2017-09-05T20:31:41-05:00

Whoever gets paid at Blizz to make a vain attempt to appease entitled players who don’t like minor issues like flying most certainly does not get paid enough.

Comment by Agentkillerlee

on 2017-09-05T20:31:52-05:00

The PvP changes are well needed. I do wish Hpally got a small buff again.

Comment by tr1gger

on 2017-09-05T20:38:31-05:00

There is always a time and place for flying and as we have come to find out time and time and TIME again its never in the new content. Not sure why that comes as a shocker to most. I just break out my freshest ground mounts and explore. I learn the terrain and look forward to unlocking flying in that zone later on.

Nothing new 😉

Comment by Aralnda

on 2017-09-05T20:52:21-05:00

i quite like the pathfinding, it is tedious but you got to explore the areas better. And it felt like i accomplished something after completing it. I dont quite mind the pathfinding being a bit easier after a new patch drops, because by then its not reall relevant anymore even if its the same expansion but most of us are on argus and not even on the broken isles anymore. SO for alts or new people coming it, they can have it a bit easier catch up mechanic to get flying and reach argus faster to join the rest of us. I also think that argus has a different gravity situation with Macree floating above Argus and what not, so that would be weird flying through space without any space helmets on lol.

Comment by ZippyWonderdog

on 2017-09-05T20:58:02-05:00

I think you could have flying, but it would be dangerous so you can’t just mindlessly fly around on your mount you have to pay attention and maybe use the terrain to dodge the AA batteries.
That said if we aren’t going to have flying give us a more teleportals!

Comment by dusty97

on 2017-09-05T21:02:19-05:00

Cool, Ornyx turned into a Zarhym level snarky ass.

Comment by Faoil

on 2017-09-05T21:02:35-05:00

I’m going to make the assumption that a lot of the people complaining about the lack of enabled flying are not PvPers.

Two reasons: one being they don’t have the awesome vicious saddle mounts that are in my opinion some of the flyest (eh? Amirite) mounts in the game. Two they don’t have the thrill of killing Horde whilst chewing mana buns.

I’m so glad Blizzard stand up for their actions. It’s their game after all and in this decision I heartily agree.

Comment by offspinner

on 2017-09-05T21:02:49-05:00

It’s not that difficult to get around Argus. Just pay attention to the map, visual clues in the landscape and the proximity of mobs. Use barding if it helps.

But it is tedious getting around Argus. I totally understand those who wish to fly there.

Comment by dusty97

on 2017-09-05T21:06:10-05:00

I’m going to make the assumption that a lot of the people complaining about the lack of enabled flying are not PvPers.

Two reasons: one being they don’t have the awesome vicious saddle mounts that are in my opinion some of the flyest (eh? Amirite) mounts in the game. Two they don’t have the thrill of killing Horde whilst chewing mana buns.

I’m so glad Blizzard stand up for their actions. It’s their game after all and in this decision I heartily agree.

I server transfered off KJ for that reason. PvP is no concern to me, Disable flight on PvP servers then if they hate it that much.

Also, they haven’t stood by anything, They never take a firm stance on flight, instead they play it to keep subs.

Comment by DarkAviator

on 2017-09-05T21:06:47-05:00

There is always a time and place for flying and as we have come to find out time and time and TIME again its never in the new content. Not sure why that comes as a shocker to most. I just break out my freshest ground mounts and explore. I learn the terrain and look forward to unlocking flying in that zone later on.

Nothing new 😉

You probably know that they don’t even plan on letting us fly on Argus, don’t you?
IF we’d be able to get flying via an achievement or questline, the terrain would still be bad, and littered with pointlessly tough mobs, but it would be a bit more tolerable.

Comment by Tuckletuts

on 2017-09-05T21:21:32-05:00

Good to see Blizzard sent the lawyers to answer questions in a round-about and passive-aggressive manner without understanding the legitimate concerns of a large number of players. Perhaps when they get the “data” that shows very few people on Argus or sub numbers/play time dropping they’ll actually take some notice.

Comment by vindurza

on 2017-09-05T21:21:33-05:00

my issue with flying is they lock it behind a damn time wall. If they want to lock it behind a lv and achievement that’s fine but do it at the start of the expansion, like they did all the way up to MoP. The issue is not so much they’re ignoring flight they are putting it behind a time gate and it feels like this is just to draw out cash, this is why I think a lot of people are getting angry about not being allowed to fly. This controversy would not exist if they just allowed us to unlock flying at the start of an expansion and not draw it out at months on end usually through content droughts.

Comment by SquirePip

on 2017-09-05T21:25:01-05:00

I think you could have flying, but it would be dangerous so you can’t just mindlessly fly around on your mount you have to pay attention and maybe use the terrain to dodge the AA batteries.
That said if we aren’t going to have flying give us a more teleportals!

This the problem with flying is it’s both the fastest and safest way to get anywhere and it also allows you to ignore all obstacles. It should allow you to nullify one of those not all 3. I feel like the players who want flying would also be perfectly fine with not having to kill raid bosses and just getting loot in the mail every reset. You should have to actually play the game to play the game and flying allows you to avoid a big part of playing it.

Comment by SquirePip

on 2017-09-05T21:27:36-05:00

my issue with flying is they lock it behind a damn time wall. If they want to lock it behind a lv and achievement that’s fine but do it at the start of the expansion, like they did all the way up to MoP. The issue is not so much they’re ignoring flight they are putting it behind a time gate and it feels like this is just to draw out cash, this is why I think a lot of people are getting angry about not being allowed to fly. This controversy would not exist if they just allowed us to unlock flying at the start of an expansion and not draw it out at months on end usually through content droughts.

except the only time flying wasn’t time-gated was in Cata (which was probably a big mistake looking back). requiring max level is still a time-gate just not quite big as one.

Comment by offspinner

on 2017-09-05T21:35:46-05:00

You should have to actually play the game to play the game and flying allows you to avoid a big part of playing it.

Argus is essentially just a WQ hub with a pretty skybox (and, yes I count invasions likewise when they open up). That’s the content. There’s no reason to stretch out player engagement any more than that. We’re all paying the same sub fee if we’re playing for 30 minutes per week or 15 hours.

Travelling between WQs is not especially compelling content. If you find it fun, good for you. I hope you don’t use the teleports, by the way.

Comment by Saffiosia

on 2017-09-05T21:37:26-05:00

i wasn’t one of the earliest with Pathfinder2 but got it mid april.
I liked the no flying period questing and finding my way through beautifully designed terrain. (same in MoP & WoD)
Also like the sometimes puzlly way to get somewere.

For me it’s absolutly no problem that Argus is a no fly-zone.
If we could fly everywere we might as well just pay for everything. (pay to win)

Just put some effort in.

Comment by offspinner

on 2017-09-05T21:40:59-05:00

If we could fly everywere we might as well just pay for everything. (pay to win)

That’s a completely absurd comparison.

Comment by Interest

on 2017-09-05T22:04:28-05:00

Wew there’s a lot to go over here. Time to write an essay.

I think plenty of folks disagree with you on the first point, and Argus has been one of the best parts of Legion to me personally, but just to clarify on the second:

I’m actually kind of surprised people are comparing the two. While I can’t speak for McCree Mac’aree, the first two areas do seem to have a fair bit of distinction when it comes to a world torn apart by Legion influence and all of the lethality that comes with it. Lava was hardly dangerous on the Broken Shore, yet the Antoran Wastes can yield a painful experience that makes it different from superficial comparisons of atmosphere. Furthermore, while it might be nice to be able to fly to avoid all the twists and turns that navigating the Argus zones (so far), there is something to be said about rewarding good navigation too.

This is nothing new, and we don’t have any plans to change this going forward. New zones added in patch content have never to my knowledge had flying allowed. Even when flying was introduced in 2.0, flying was not available on the Isle of Quel’danas when it released in 2.4. The same is true of Isle of Thunder and Timeless Isle from 5.2 and 5.4. These zones have always been about exploration, with a bit of danger, and Argus fits quite nicely into that theme.

I can understand that you may have recently earned Pathfinder and want to fly, but no one is stopping you from flying anywhere you want over the Broken Isles – but this is Argus.

On these middle points, I also tend to use the “non-flyable zones” argument when discussing Argus and why it’s not flyable. I think one thing that could be added to support the point is that flight is very advantageous to have in the Legion expansion itself still. There’s still World Quests and other activities to do outside of Argus and many of them remain highly lucrative. Flasks aren’t going to make themselves after all, for example… It would even be a nice substitution for points Ornyx has made like:

I think we’d probably try to avoid things like this being so close together in the future, but its just a symptom of timing as far as I’m aware.

Anyways..

Tanaan was technically a part of the original overworld of Draenor. It wasn’t added in a patch – a door was just opened via your shipyard in patch.

I don’t think they’re quite equitable for a number of reasons from how they are accessed, the number of zones, how invasions and world quests function, etc.

I think another example that could’ve been brought up here was Wintergrasp, which garnered many, many complaints when it was an unflyable zone but it had a lot more to do with the fact it was almost in the middle of Northrend. This zone was eventually made flyable to make access to other zones easier and largely only for that reason. While Tanaan Jungle is a little out of the way, it’s still an area players may end up traversing when traveling around Draenor and thus, I imagine Blizzard didn’t want to make the same mistake.

Furthermore, if for some reason WoD got a zone like Farahlon (which was planned), it probably wouldn’t have been flyable at all. It’s an island that’s out of the way much like the TImeless Isle and thus would’ve gotten similar treatment.

We can say buzz phrases like “the genie is out of the bottle” all day, but it doesn’t get us anywhere. I think it’s been well acknowledged that we are still open to the idea of flight or we wouldn’t have flight in any content at all, no? We’ve moved to meet the community in the middle – that’s what Pathfinder has been about. Earn your wings: show you’ve achieved completion of the content overall and you can fly.

There’s not really an attitude of ‘close mindedness’ on the topic from the development team, we’ve had plenty of positive discussions on the direction of flying overall. I do think, however, that there are folks in the community who are ‘close minded’ to entertaining an idea of “maybe you shouldn’t be able to fly around and skip all the content when new areas are released”.

I think this is a good jumping off point to summarize my thoughts on the accessibility of flight in WoW:

I do think Pathfinder is a decent compromise to ensure players do the content available without flying before being able to simplify the process with flying, most likely on other characters.

I also think it’s okay to have areas which are not flyable. It encourages an emphasis on terrain-based level design and mob distribution which can make exploration more interesting. Preferably, this doesn’t involve a bunch of (reused) caves and incidentally, I do like that Argus occasionally bombards you with fel just often enough to keep you on your toes but not so often that it’s a nuisance.

However, the point I think Ornyx (and a number of other blues when the flight topic flared up the last time) miss is that flight in itself can impose challenges on a player. I recall there’s some disagreements from the developers when it comes to making flying dangerous but I think having some subzones where flying is about surviving by using evasive maneuvers and the like, such as Ogri’la, can work. This opens up some possible risk-reward choices, such as when it’s more appropriate to stay grounded or in the air.

Meanwhile, Wrath’s flight design has been embraced a little bit more by utilizing areas that can almost certainly only be reached by flying but has largely been used to populate areas with cosmetic dropping rares, minor easter eggs, and the like. I think more could be explored here.

Ultimately, I’m content with the way flight is being managed currently. I think more can be done and removing the ability to fly in general is a design direction I probably won’t agree with (without incredibly compelling reasons, anyways) but having an unflyable area every now and then is fine in my book.

Comment by Eighjan

on 2017-09-05T22:26:06-05:00

I still find the most hilarious thing about most of the flying debate is centred around not wanting to spend too much time in a game genre that IS basically a time/life sink.

RPG’s are INTENDED to take lots of your time… and if that isn’t what you want from a game, then plain & simple; why are you playing WoW…?

If all your life allows you is the odd 30-60m a day – and maybe once or twice a week, at that – there are probably better genres of game to play that have less time requirement to get a decently proficient play level… play them, instead.

If I’m honest, I’d much rather have the equivalent of the Paladin Class Mount for all of my characters – that ‘looks’ like a land mount, when not flying – than have the likes of a dragon restricted to walking because it looks ridiculous, compared to a horse/wolf/other ‘ground-based’ animal. If they RP (as much as I can get away with, without full-on RP’ing) into the characters’ Class as possible, then that helps too – Arcanist’s Manasaber for a Mage, for example.

In short; Blizz. make the game, ergo they set the rules… most players know some time in advance that &/or if flying is going to be restricted, so ‘crying about it’ after the content concerned is released DOES come across as “I’m a spoilt/entitled brat; let me have all my toys, all the time!”… and it gets old, soooo fast & tedious to have to read over & OVER again.

WoW, like real life, is about adapting/improvising/overcoming the circumstances we find ourselves in… and some adapt/improvise/overcome better than others. Fine, if you don’t like that something is disabled, even temporarily, say you’re not happy, but to badger Blizzard into changing the way things work to suit YOUR needs is, quite frankly, ‘draining’.

If anyone wants to ‘whine’ about ‘no-fly’ zones, why not divert your energies to getting TBC start zones flying-enabled/other start zones flying DIS-abled, rather than ‘whining’ about content that has been designed – and the players accordingly informed, as such – to primarily be flight-free & that may… just may… get flight added to it at a later date.

On that note, I get the impression that the triple-A is about to open up on me… like it always does.

Taking cover…



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